worth buying this 'penny'?

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mihnea
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worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mihnea » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:48 am

Hi,

I just came across this I14 in Barrie, ON and was wondering if it's worth the trouble. How much work would it take to make it sailable?

I've figured it's the same make and vintage as the other Canadian ones I've seen on this site such as 'Spike', so it should be at least fun if not competitive. My biggest worry is if it's worth the $1500 he's asking for it.

here are the pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihnea/set ... 358922561/

Thanks,
Mihnea

mihnea
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mihnea » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:13 pm

I guess it's not a recognizable boat. I got a hold of the original owner and he said it was converted to B14. Are there any differences in mast height or sail size between the 2?

sailnaked6842
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by sailnaked6842 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:26 pm

I don't know much about the fleet and am still pretty new to it, but from what I can tell the boats not worth much more than a couple hundred...8 or 900 total if it has good sails.
The boat looks like a cross III, but again I'm not 100% on that. What I do know is that the B14 has a shorter mast, smaller sails and no trapezes, so don't expect it to be competitive with the rest of the 14s. It'll still be one of the quicker boats when the winds lighter and a fun boat to sail, but again don't expect a lot of crazy rides like the 14s. I'd keep looking for one, but if anything you can try apolloduck(dot)com. 90% of the boats are in the UK, but they are really cheap.

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rand
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by rand » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:52 am

Not sure what a B14 is, but this is a Cross III (just saw US 1038 painted dark blue in Stockton, CA today). Wether it was built as an international 14, or a One Design, would be hard to tell. The one designs had several different configs. This one looks rigged for a single trap, but we sailed that Superspar with two wires, so it can be done. They are soft, I over bent three in one year once...

Is it worth buying?

Depends on what you want it four. There is a bit of work to get this one going again, I see some separation (and the Cross III's tended to leak a bit...). You won't anywhere near competitive with modern 14's (the Cross III was world Champ in 1985), but you could have a blast sailing it under Portsmith.
Rand Arnold
International 14 USA 1143
"A Bumblebee Called Kate"
(former US President, former US Measurer)

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Shu
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by Shu » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:37 pm

A B14 is a strict one-design boat with wide (think 18-ft skiff) racks, but no trapeze. It was developed by the Bethwaites, and I've heard the B14 hull was a starting point for the 29er. Although the rig size and performance are similar, it would not be possible to convert a penny to a true B14. I think a B14 is about as high performance as you can get in a monohull dinghy without foils or trapeze. I'm guessing that they are easy to capsize to windward, given that it would be slower to move into the boat from a sitting position relative to a trapeze.
Steve Shumaker
USA 1183

fastair
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by fastair » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:48 am

Spike had the same separation issues. One cold Canadian winter's day (-26C) I got tired of looking at the split seams and took a wide pry bar and broke the inner and outer hulls apart. Since it was so cold the bedding compound just popped apart with great ease. I also had a big hole in the bottom from the last owner running her into a dock so I had to rip it apart. In the summer after repairing the hole, I rebuilt her hull with very thickened west systems... she still leaks but that's due to some crappy bedding of the deck fittings.
I rebuilt the centerboard box inside and out as that's where these cross III's like to leak from.
Fun to sail, hell ya. Lots of work? Well if you only have a few separation spots you can spot re epoxy vice popping the hull apart, but the original bedding compound may not be that great after 20 years. I don't think its worth 1500 unless it comes with a new trailer and really good sails. Everything I see can be repaired and you can carbon over the seams just to be sure. Spike developed a few stress fractures at some seams so thats what I'm doing. West systems sells a syringe kit you can shoot epoxy into the split seams with. Just pry the seam apart a wee bit with a wide flat end screw driver. If the seam keeps opening, the bedding compound may be too tired. Also a bargaining point with the current owner, just my experience with that bedding compond mind you. It might have just been my boat..
If you want to see if the deck fittings are water tight, do what I did. Borrow one of those Coleman air mattress pumps you plug into the car lighter, blow some air into the drain plug, ( it doesn't take much and don't over pressure it ) then some warm soapy water and brush around where everything is bedded. If it bubbles..you got leaks..
I love working on boats so my issues were not that big a challenge. Spike cost me 50 bucks (hull, mast, rudder and centerboard, a few deck fittings) and about 700-1000 to get her fixed and floating. ( I got a crap load of parts off Stuart Saffort as she had been stripped bare of all deck fittings and wires ) If you can get her for uber cheap and like fixing things.. they are fun boats to play with
I figure you have about 300 bucks of repairs ahead of you based on the pictures and if all the bits and pieces you need are included. Could be more depending on how you want the final product to look like.
Dave
Too many boats, too little time

mwattsi14
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mwattsi14 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:28 am

Definately not converted to a B14.

www.b14.org

As to easier to capsize to windward.. I will answer that once I manage to purchase my I14 ;)
Mark Watts
GBR 1534

mihnea
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mihnea » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:39 pm

Thanks everyone! your feedback has 'showed me the way' so to speak! I have given up on that one since the seller won't budge. It does come with a trailer, dolly and all the sails, but none are in good enough shape to warrant the price.

I've found another one in Ottawa now for much less, but without spinnaker, bowsprite or trailer, altho the boat itself looks much better. I'm wondering if I can find a trailer someplace for cheap. In any case, am really considering this 2nd one, altho even this one may prove to be a bit of a gamble and may cost me in the long term even more.

here are some pics of the other boat: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihnea/set ... 358922561/

One last potentially silly question: could I cartop this thing?

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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by fastair » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:42 pm

A utility trailer will do and you won't need the spinny and bowsprit for your first little bit IMHO. You will be way too busy swimming, er ah I mean sailing with jib and main for the first bit.. I still do, I have no shame, I have a bad crew ;)
You can prolly find a carbon fiber tube or aluminum pole later on in the game. How far from Ottawa are you?
This one looks better from the pictures.
Car top?? Hmmm I think these beasts would be a wee bit heavy even for a good set of roof racks. I never tried.. I'd need a block and tackle to get the darned thing on the jetta..
Dave
Too many boats, too little time

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rand
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by rand » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:58 pm

Eric Arens car topped his Kirby VII on top of his Dodge Dart, until I finally convinced him to leave it on the trailer (collecting three friends each time he needed to load up and unload could be difficult!).

This boat does look better.

You probably just need to go for it. It is a boat after all and a 14 at that, you will spend lots of money on it, then you will sell it for less than you paid for it and then you will get another one and do it all over again! :-)

And hopefully have a really big grin on your face every time you come in :-)
Rand Arnold
International 14 USA 1143
"A Bumblebee Called Kate"
(former US President, former US Measurer)

brucetr
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by brucetr » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:24 am

The latest photos look like a Cross 3 circa late 1980s. These boats are all over the place near the Great Lakes, so you should be able to get spare parts. I have one just like it and have enjoyed sailing it over the past four years. The hull design is very modern in yacht terms--nearly every modern sport boat copies it, although the design is dated by 14 standards.

It is a great boat to learn skiff sailing in, though the only way you will win a 14 race is to be the last man standing, which could happen. Lately, I cut down some old sails and have used the boat occasionally as a solo skiff, which is a blast.

The next step up would be a Bieker 2 or similar age new-rules boat--these seem to start at $3000, so you definately want to pay a lot less than that for the Cross 3.

Bruce R.
Granite Bay, Calif

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mechoption
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mechoption » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:54 am

That looks just like my 1986 Cross III, there's a bunch of tid bits in this thread about that genre of boat: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1217

For $1500 and that vintage I would expect road trailer, beach trailer, multiple sets of sails, and a boat ready to sail in decent winds, otherwise try and bargain down a bit. I've had a blast on mine (see my avatar :)) and would recommend it as a great starter 14.
Cross III Penultimate I14, 1986, "Grin", CAN519
Kirby 1? I14, 1968, "Agamemnon", CAN324 (sold)

mihnea
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mihnea » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:05 am

Well, back to square one.

The one in Ottawa was sold, so now I'm back to looking for one. Do any of you know of any older I14s that aren't being used as much anymore? I'd like to get one sooner so that I can learn to sail it while the water's warm and the breeze light. Come Sept, it'll be too cold to be in the water much and the wind will be picking up - I'd better know what I'm doing by then!

Thanks,
Mihnea

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mechoption
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mechoption » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:45 am

mihnea wrote:Well, back to square one.

The one in Ottawa was sold, so now I'm back to looking for one. Do any of you know of any older I14s that aren't being used as much anymore? I'd like to get one sooner so that I can learn to sail it while the water's warm and the breeze light. Come Sept, it'll be too cold to be in the water much and the wind will be picking up - I'd better know what I'm doing by then!

Thanks,
Mihnea
That sucks. I can recommend searching on Kiijii, eBay, and also scrounging out websites for Ontario based sailing clubs. I picked up my 14 through an ad I found on the Nepean Sailing Club. There's another I14 for sale on there, but it's a $7000 Bieker 3 which might be out of your price range.
Cross III Penultimate I14, 1986, "Grin", CAN519
Kirby 1? I14, 1968, "Agamemnon", CAN324 (sold)

mihnea
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Re: worth buying this 'penny'?

Post by mihnea » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:34 am

Thanks - I've been scouring only kijiji so far. I'll add ebay to the list and I'll check out the Napanee club, too!

Btw, www.i14.ca is up - looks great so far! I wish it had a classified section, tho.

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