GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

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EdS
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Tue May 21, 2013 7:44 am

Tiller extension connections
So i didnt go the G10 plate route, i layed up a flat plate of carbon on some glass.
Once cured, i cut it to the correct round shape and put the three holes in it. Centre and two bolt hole for connection to the barrel.

I took the carbon/kevlar tube i made ( just made it from offcuts i had lying around) and cut two small lengths out of it.
these were then bogged onto the plate.

Initially this appeared to be strong enough despite the plan to be further reinforcement.
I left the two adapters alone and started assembly, only to find when i was shortening the m4 bolts that i bent the UJ through over 140 degrees and pop.
the interesting thing is that the carbon plate got ripped up and the fillet was fine. maybe that isnt unusual.

So last night was spent reinforcing both plates with carbon, in order to protect the holes i had drilled and the centre of the tube which separated were filled with plastecine.
I dont think it will break this time, but i might go over with some 45:45 cloth around the edge of the base plate and up to the tube to ensure a secure connection. any thoughts?
photo (29).JPG
UJ connection to the Ovi Barrel
UJ and tiller extension connection.
the previous Uj's had been bogged into the tube and after a significant fight i gave up digging. I now have a rubber stopper in the other end and strings of molten rubber from cutting them with a grinder.
Following Shu's input about putting holes in carbon and also to mitigate the localised force from the stiffer UJ's, I reinforced the last inch of the tube with carbon prior to drilling the holes.
photo (30).JPG
Spinnaker halyard guide
The tube came out much better, the inner layer was 100g kevlar and then wrapped with carbon. the only thing i didnt do due to using a copper pipe as a mandral was to put a bend in it to stop wear on the edges.
these were sanded smooth and rounded to reduce this issue, but maybe it needs to be redone with diablo shaped mouldings.
the two pieces are located at the spreaders and next to the mast track. hopefully their wont be too much friction going around to the block on the front of the mast.
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EdS
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Tue May 21, 2013 8:03 am

On another note, I finally got educated and the rudder gantry biscuit is what i had been referring too.
Any suggestions on how to make a new one? I need to move the rudder closer to the pivot point and really move the foil towards the leading edge of the rudder, but that can wait for a new rudder at some point.

It seems the UK people make them out of carbon and in the US they go for different metal machined pieces......
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by Pirate » Wed May 22, 2013 4:31 pm

Check out Shu's My New Boat thread or the Rebuild of US1112.

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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Wed May 22, 2013 11:07 pm

Thanks, I was hoping to get some advice on making a replace by out of carbon, but maybe bronze would be better.
I had a look over those threads and they refer mainly to the book rather than the biscuit other than cutting out to a template.

On a positive note my rudder and tiller extensions are all assembled and despite some unreasonable contortion there is no sign of imminent failure. And the new spinnaker is ready for collection.

Sailing on Saturday, can't wait!
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Shu
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by Shu » Wed May 22, 2013 11:35 pm

Ed,
Somewhere I have (had?) a sketch of how I would create the "bisquit" out of carbon. These things have all sorts of weird stress orientations, so they do lend themselves to an isotropic, ductile material like bronze. That said, here is my basic recipe:

G10 tube 5/16" ID by 1/2" OD. This is for the pintle. Don't use carbon tube.
1/2" thick carbon plate, slightly oversize. G10 plate would be ok but heavier.
1. Glue the tube to the front edge of the plate, and fill the gap with epoxy bog (no microballoons). Sand smooth. Trim the back edge to size, allowing for the subsequent thickness of the carbon wrapping.
2. Sand our router the back edges to a good radius (as much as 1/4").
3. Wrap the whole thing many times with epoxy saturated carbon cloth to get the desired thickness for your cassette (book). Vacuum bag, or: wrap tightly with electrical tape, and then clamp between two stiff pieces of plywood.
You may need to repeat step 3 to get the proper thickness.
4. Cut to fit/clean up the top and bottom edges.
5.Coat with more epoxy to make sure it is sealed against all water absorption.
Do not cut any lightening holes. This will still be far lighter than a well lightened bronze one.
-Steve
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USA 1183

EdS
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Thu May 23, 2013 8:08 am

Thanks Steve,

I learned the lesson re Carbon and bearings, my rudder stock has carbon as the bearing surface and they need repacking effectively.

Will definitely look into doing this in the next couple of weeks, thanks for the advice.

What was the foam you had in the bottom of your boat? Was is EVA foam?

Ed
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by Dan H » Thu May 23, 2013 11:13 am

Ed,
I made my biscuit out of carbon and foam with ply as core in the crush area. I laminated around a 13mm tube so that I have embedded seasure bushes top and bottom to manage the bearing situation. It has never been a problem and is significantly lighter than bronze.
I made the basis sheet for the biscuit large enough to make 2 biscuits, so my leftovers may possibly be enough for you - If it is then you're welcome to it as I'm not going to be sticking it on a new boat any time soon.
Let me know if that is of any use.
Dan

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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by BBSCFaithfull » Thu May 23, 2013 4:52 pm

Any chance of pics Dan?
Upright not upside down!

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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by Shu » Thu May 23, 2013 6:42 pm

Ed,
I used Seadek foam. 3mm thick. It is EVA. Their online store only lists 5mm; you have to call them and special order the 3mm stuff. If you have corrector weights to spare, the heavier 5mm stuff would be extra cushy, though maybe not so good for wrapping around racks and such.
http://www.seadek.com/
-Steve
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by Dan H » Fri May 24, 2013 11:17 am

Which bits do you need pics of? Biscuit or the system plumbed into the boat?

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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Sun May 26, 2013 7:32 pm

Dan, yes please.
I know I can take 2 cm off my biscuit minimum without impacting the range but I would rather make a second than cut up my current one. Being without biscuit would be annoying.

Image
the push rod is a swage rigging connection.
Image
It is simply carbon tube and foam wrapped on carbon.

Shu, thanks for that, I will look into that and see if they will deliver to Houston for me.

So an update on the weekend and the first sail and six months and also first since the reorganisation and repairs.
The main thing was big smile all round and no breakages which would have ended the day early.

I upped the twist grip from 4:1 to 8:1 prior to sailing, it did work but given the light breeze but it was a battle, it is now (day 2) 16:1 and it works ok. 23 knots today and I made good use of it downwind, although getting the foil all the way on upwind was not really possible, hence the biscuit modification. Wonder how major moving the foil to the leading edge of the rudder is, it is currently on the aft quarter of the chord.

The newly shorten caps which are now on a vernier with the main shrouds worked a charm although we need to spend some time playing with settings.

So no racing, but we went of for a gentle sail, crew getting to know each other and the boat getting a gentle test in about 8 knots. Sailing was cut short by the tide but all in all in nice start

Working lost from day 1
- 1 block on the foil purchase, I.e. Largest load, it just folded up (note I was just recycling a plain bearing block, I didn't buy it for this purpose)
Image
- the twist grip barrel got detached by yours truly dismounting on the beach
- one tow strap got pulled out by my foot ( better than a broken ankle)
- jib halyard purchase lengths wrong

All of the above got fixed post sailing.

Today was varied to say the least. Patchy 5 knots from the NW made for some interesting gains and losses.
Then it died for an hour before coming in at 20 knots from the other direction, adjustable rigging does help sometimes...
We didn't race after decided we weren't happy around so many boats while we were getting used to the boat. A decision helped some what by a close quarters capsize which ended with 9/10 dismount according to Mr Watts.
We sailed down to the Solent and came back with the spinnaker up several times, wow these boats are quick...
Great fun.

Working list from day 2
- main halyard strop shortening
-biscuit removed after measuring what could be cut off
- 2.5mm dyneema to be removed from the rudder purchase, doesn't look man enough.
- splice the spinnaker ratchets on to the rack, the knots slipped today.
- pro grip on the front of the front rack strut for light winds.
- remove metal loops from the spinner retrieval ( any ideas on a replacement that won't catch at badly??)
- uj for tiller extensions can be shortened, they have softened up, maybe the dual weave hydraulic tube would be better.
- cut the cap shroud guide out of the lower spreaders and clear coat the spreaders

The main challenge is the biscuit replacement or modification prior to next weekend.
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by Shu » Tue May 28, 2013 7:05 pm

Good work Ed!
I like how the working list after sailing is longer than the list you completed prior to sailing. That sounds about right!
-Steve
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Wed May 29, 2013 7:39 am

Thanks Steve, I am conscious that alot of that is not too interesting but given that it was the first sail i thought I was relevant.

I will try and post potentially interesting bit of work now.

So the first thing I need to do in this post is thank Mr Dan Holman for being extremely generous in donating the following to help me with the rudder system:

- A donor Biscuit (rocker, depending on who you speak to)
- the book
- some carbon rod suitable for the push rod
- several cups of tea and tons of emails

One of the best things about the class that is evident in the short time i have been involved is how open, friendly and helpful everyone is.
I will stop before i get some abuse, but from me Thank you to all those who have welcomed me and helped me out.
photo (32).JPG
Donated book and biscuit
I test fitted both the book and biscuit into the boat and they fit but it pinches the book, so theoretically with some sanding i could put a book inside a book.
The counter arguement for this is coming up.
photo (31).JPG
Two biscuits next to each other
photo (33).JPG
Stencils of the two Biscuits
you will obviously notice the biscuits are not the same height. There is a 2cm difference
Dan's Biscuit is designed around the Seasure carbon bushings which will add a little stack height, i am considering fitting them to my rudder as well which has oval holes from just a plane hole in carbon.
However i will still need to extend the biscuit a little.

So extending the book means i need to extend the reinforcement, in order to do this without affecting the outside profile this require Kris/Shu/Dan skills which i do not possess.
My plan is instead to increase the width of the biscuit to match my old biscuit. Given that it fits albeit tightly withthe current biscuit which had a spacer built in, i can follow that lay up and as long as enough pressure is applied i will get the correct size book.

Dans book is constructed of 4 300g layers of carbon 1 woven 0-90, uni 45, uni -45, woven (dont remember the alignment)
So if i go with 3x300 and 1x 200 layer, then i should reach the desired width with enough space for the biscuit to move.
photo (34).JPG
Marking out the trimming of the donor biscuit
photo (35).JPG
Top cut out filled in with dry fit part of the cut out, wood cored section
The in fill pieces were added and made to be an interference fit so i could sand them to size on location prior to gluing. Not sure why really.
They were later glued in position with a micro fibre mix.
Last edited by EdS on Wed May 29, 2013 8:12 am, edited 4 times in total.
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EdS
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Wed May 29, 2013 7:49 am

photo (36).JPG
Top view of the G10 plates being bonded on. I predrilled the holes and put the drill bits in the parts whilst clamping to ensure alignment
photo (37).JPG
Bottom view of G10 plate being bonded, note it did slide out of aligment a tough, but thankfully in line with the part and i can easy adapt the hole to fit and repack the wood side with some filler. annoying but i guess mistakes happen
The part cured infront of the AGA and i sanded back the excess G10 and epoxy, no photos just yet, but i will add them later.
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EdS
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Re: GBR1524 TLC and control line changes

Post by EdS » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:49 am

photo (38).JPG
hole filled in and G10 cured top and bottom
photo (41).JPG
Monkey see. monkey use. The two glass plates with biscuit between with some local weights for compression
photo (43).JPG
cured, glass intact now to separate without smashing the glass
photo (40).JPG
the two biscuits post the addition of 800g bi-ax and 300g uni
Unfortunately i was still near 1mm under thickness after this, so the surface got flatted back and another 800g bia ax added.
This brought me close to the final thickness, i have since added 1 layer of 200g woven carbon and I am hoping that is it.

I have got hold of the bushes and the next challenge is where to put the pivot hole and how to attach the pushrod to the top of the biscuit.
The current biscuit using a rigging swage connector
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