Mainsail measurement and voting

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Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by george » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:32 am

Bit of a rant here i'm afraid.

I wasn't at the worlds - sorry all, sounded great, but work is work...

I have been waiting since Cowes POW / pre Germany for something to be done about the mainsail head dilemma. It remains that mainsails which measure can be used illegally when hoisted normally on the mast. The world voted for a change in the measurement rule which appeared to sensibly resolve the issue.
I now hear that objections were raised at the worlds, months after the vote, and the rule change has been put on hold with no further discussion since.

1) What is the point of voting as a class if any individual can veto?

2) If people are to object to proposed rule changes in future can they PLEASE do so clearly in the discussion before the vote, or preferably while the change is being proposed.

3) If extroadinary circumstances make a delay essential, then surely the onus is on those involved to fix the problem in good time. It is now 2 months post sydney.

A very annoyed George

COI - I want to order a new sail and will not do so under the old rule, which almost everyone agrees is inadequate.

Colin Smith
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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by Colin Smith » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:17 am

Hi George

Some of this will overlap with our email conversation, but just for general information:

1) No individual made this decision, it was made by the class World Council at the meeting in Sydney

2) Agreed!

3) The World Council has appointed a group of measurers and sailmakers to advise it; this group is discussing by email. Practically, countries wanted to measure a number of their sails under the new rule to check its operation, and given most of the fleet was in containers on their way home from Sydney, that slowed things down a bit (also, all involved are volunteers and "work is work" for the rest of us as well! :-) )

The key problem was that concerns were raised in Sydney that the new rule (a) didn't work technically, (b) would dramatically change sail area, and (c) was hard for sailmakers to build to. Rather than go ahead and implement it anyway, it therefore seemed sensible to put implementation on hold while these concerns were addressed

Where we are now is:
(a) there was indeed a problem in the wording, although it is easily fixed
(b) I believe (without wanting to speak for others) the group are now comfortable this is not the case, the discussion is down to the relative detail of whether the area to be added to compensate for including roach in the measurement should be 0.7m2 or 0.8m2
(c) open issue, a few sailmakers being polled for opinions

In terms of new sails:
- the new rule is written to basically adapt the measurement method to the way sails are being built in practice and so should not materially affect sail shape
- any sail built and measured to the existing rule will be "grandfathered" (and once the approach is agreed we will build in a delay of a month or two before implementation to allow for sails already in build)
- the only new thing I can see the new rule as currently written would allow would be that the "peak" (aft end of the head) of the sail COULD go as high as you want. But the area this created would be captured and would have to come off somewhere else. So it's only worth waiting for if you are super-keen to exploit this. If so, sorry, but we're working on it!

Cheers
Colin

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by aem27 » Mon May 03, 2010 7:57 am

So George, which is it to be: the long leach or standard old leach?

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by george » Tue May 04, 2010 4:10 pm

A long leash for you, Archie, but only if you wear your studded collar.

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by touringwombat » Thu May 06, 2010 6:34 am

Hi George ,Colin ,14ers

So Does this mean ,to change the wording we need a re vote ,I would assume so!! ,

if so what is the harm in giving two options to vote on ??? ,

the one voted last year with the alterations to the wording regarding perpendicular to the luff ,

and the option of a head angle limit (approx 112deg) with the area remaining the same ,thus no real change in the sail plan ??

Dave A

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by aem27 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:17 am

That would get my vote, as it wouldn't change the game too much.

I think we're just trying to get clarity here rather than proposing a new avenue for sail design.

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by Rich » Thu May 06, 2010 6:26 pm

touringwombat wrote:Hi George ,Colin ,14ers

So Does this mean ,to change the wording we need a re vote ,I would assume so!! ,

if so what is the harm in giving two options to vote on ??? ,

the one voted last year with the alterations to the wording regarding perpendicular to the luff ,

and the option of a head angle limit (approx 112deg) with the area remaining the same ,thus no real change in the sail plan ??

Dave A
With the fix limit what happens if someone finds out that an angle of 114 deg has some performance gains for some reason or other. We wouldn't be able to have sails of that angle with out a rule change which will be a complete pain in the arse.

Also im not sure how a fix angle or any sail related only rule will address the 25' sail hight rule as that is dependant on the bend and rake of the mast.
GBR 1474

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by touringwombat » Thu May 06, 2010 10:54 pm

It wouldn't matter if someone found 114 deg to be fast it would be illegal ,that is the point
the max angle is simple to police ,leaves very little room for interpretation and keeps the sail plan as similar to existing as possible

If we go we the proposed rule ,with the rewording .the sail will be able to extend well above the 7627mm max height ,thus changing a fundamental rule of the class and creating the possibility of a whole heap of out dated sails

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by Rich » Fri May 07, 2010 12:09 pm

touringwombat wrote:It wouldn't matter if someone found 114 deg to be fast it would be illegal ,that is the point
the max angle is simple to police ,leaves very little room for interpretation and keeps the sail plan as similar to existing as possible
If 114 deg is an improvement posibility then we should be able to explore it as a development class.
GBR 1474

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by touringwombat » Fri May 07, 2010 1:37 pm

Rich

Does that mean if may bee it would be faster if we were 15 feet long then should we be able to try that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the basic principle is that the sail plan is not above 7626mm above sheer
if we allow 114 deg with current masts set up ,the sail would extend above that height

we are a development class within the rules ,if we are going to allow sails to go above the 7626 mm rule why not just change the rig height !!!
lets go up to ??? 8000mm or 8500mm just because it will be faster doesn't mean it is in the best interest of the class !

Dave A
AUS 653

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by aem27 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:34 am

It strikes me that the UK proposal does change a fundamental rule of the class i.e. making the sail plan height unlimited. Please see photos of 18 foot skiff Panasonic to see what is possible above the mast tip, using a batten projecting along the luff.

Dave is simply proposing a 112 degree head angle with the head itself not allowed to be above the 7626mm height. This should roughly match the current sails, but without the grey area.

Seems highly sensible to me. Although by now, I've given up caring and am researching how to copy Panasonic's rig, which will mean greatly stiffening my whole mast.

Hope this plays out soon, so we can build sails in time for Weymouth.

Archie

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by george » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:07 am

what really pisses me off is that this is no longer a rule proposal. IT WAS VOTED IN. The fact that this happened a year ago, and we are now half way between the "decision" to delay it's introduction, and the next worlds without anyone actually doing anything to sort it out, represents an absolute disregard for the democratic wishes of class members worldwide.

re fundamentally changing the class. yes, the new rule does allow the sailplan to extend above max height, but this is no different to previously where it could happen anyway but with no means of verifying it - hence the need for something to be done. Restricting the angle of the head similarly does not prevent sails exceeding the max height, so it also "fundementally changes" the class.

My dislike of the max angle proposal is that is introduces a third order of restriction on the class rules. We are currently limited by lengths and areas (and weight), and have been for 100 years, albeit with incremental changes in all of these. To add an additional "dimension" of angle completely changes how these rules work. Are we going to start restricting the angle of the bow (once pams and hoffs have proved unbeatable)? Or how about restricting forestay angle or the angle of your racks? We could go a step further and ban helms from bending their back legs and looking like girls (apart from the girls, obviously) or restricting clothing to ball-crushing nappy harnesses that only the poorly-endowed will fit in - restricting most 14 sailing to australia!
(p.s. i'm trying to avoid doing work, which i'm well behind on)

If an angle rule is proposed, then i will need some convincing of it's merits, but if the class goes for it then i would hope it to actually happen. The first step of this process, clearly, is for someone to actually propose a new rule to go to a world vote. Independent of when this happens i expect the existing rule to be instated.

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by aem27 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:47 am

Plans are afoot to put to vote both the Aussie 112 degree rule vs the UK cleanup of their rule change, (which originally had two definitions for head!).
Perhaps we should in future put a deadline on Rules changes before a worlds. i.e. No new rules should apply within a year of the worlds.

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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by I'm a Pirate » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:07 pm

I couldn't agree more Archie,

For the purposes of clarity (and I suspect many people will not read these threads so perhaps this might be communicated more widely when resolved), is there an authority within the class that can articulate what the exact interpretation of the existing rule is.

If this is the published rules for the International 14, so be it. It's up to the individual sailors and sail makers to develop their sails as much as they like and put them before the measures for judgement of legality. If there is another source of confirmation I would be pleased to know who or what it is and when a clear statement of the rule and interpretation can be expected. Decisions about sails and masts for Weymouth are already being made. To change the game with short notice limits exploitation of the change to the wealthy and knowledgeable and is not, in my opinion, fair and equitable.

So my vote would be: let us be clear on current interpretation, stick with it until post Weymouth where a change can be agreed and ratified and come into play in time for the 2011 season and Toronto worlds

Thoughts?

JB
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Re: Mainsail measurement and voting

Post by Colin Smith » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Actually George, there has been an effort over the summer to try to get this sorted. There hasn't been agreement and the UK has now put forward a request that the World Council take the implementation of the rule voted on last year OFF hold, and put it into effect. There is one correction needed to the wording (one of the issues that led to the holdup in the first place), and so the proposal covers that, as well as a couple of other rule tidyups. But that bit needs a vote

The proposal went to the World Council today; the intention is to allow 2-3 weeks for any discussion (and if any more proposals are to be made, for that to happen), then start the vote.

The UK proposal is at http://www.international14.org/index.ph ... &Itemid=37 or via the front page under world association - class rules - November 2010 proposals

The proposal currently envisages implementation, if passed, upon the rule getting ISAF approval. If there is a strong feeling to change this, now is the time to lobby your country president/chairman/whatever accordingly!

Cheers
Colin

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